Science,Religion and Reality
Yeah that’s kinda true.I miss my old self,I want to re-experience that happy,optimistic kid with 0 knowledge believing that everything is perfect.Yeap that was me,until I woke up from my sleep of ignorance…
Okay,here’s my story
I used to be a believer,not only in God but in pretty much everything,UFOs,ghosts,myths,legends,magic etc…I didn’t need evidence,I believed in these things just because I liked them.About my belief in God..I was praying for others,sometimes for myself,just like the people today.I was going to church on Saturday,I even helped the priest in Divine Liturgy.But I was interested in science too.When I compared science and religion I saw that they were contradicting each other.They both make claims about the nature of reality.The difference is that religion makes unsupported claims while science needs evidence to support something,it doesn’t make claims out of the air,also science is open-minded,open for new ideas,conversely religion is stuck on philosophy and ideas written 2 thousand years ago.
At that point of my life I started reading about other religions,what I realized is that they all have some good and bad parts.All religions shape people’s perspective of the world,which means they control the thoughts and the way of living of whole societies.One common thing is that they all use something like the concept of “Hell”.Why?Because what’s the point of having rules if there’s no consequence to breaking them?This is a scare tactic to get people to believe through fear what they can’t believe through reason and evidence.
After getting deeper and deeper in many religions I understood that people don’t need religion in their lives.Whoever says that life without a belief in God is meaningless and we would kill each other,is just ignorant.Even if this were true, it would only prove that the belief in the existence of a God is what gives meaning to our lives, not that a god actually does exist.Also it’s like you’re telling me that the only reason I don’t kill someone is because of the God,which is stupid.Do cats kill cats?Do dogs kill dogs?Do lions kill lions?No.Do they believe in God?NO!Morality is older than any religion.Is it more moral to do something because you think you’ll get rewarded, because you think you’ll get punished if you don’t do it, or because you just think it’s the right thing to do?think about it.I don’t need to believe in God to know that stealing, murdering etc. is bad.
Then,after all that knowledge I decided that I don’t need religion,I don’t need to lie to myself pretending to know things that I don’t know.This is just illogical.Even though my life would be happier if I believed in God.Who doesn’t want an afterlife?Who doesn’t want to believe that everything happens for a reason?That there’s a Great Plan for him?BUT
Religion makes people who don’t have all the answers to think that they do.Positing a God to SUPPOSEDLY answer a question solves nothing.
“Hey what was that?”
“I don’t know”
“Then God did it!”
So if you don’t understand something, just call it a miracle and stare in wonder? Glad the people who are working on medicinal research don’t feel that way.
……………………..
“He died”
“Millions of Children suffer everyday”
“Don’t worry,it’s God’s will”
To explain it,you have to come up with some sort of very strange excuse for God.
Something like”God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine,mysterious reason”
Then you just push it out of your mind because it absolutely doesn’t fit with your view of a loving and caring God.
As I said before glad the people who are working on medicinal research don’t feel that way.
Imagine:
“Man, cancer kills a lot of people”
“Well, it must be the will of god, no need to try to fix it”
THIS IS IGNORANCE! WAKE UP PEOPLE !!!
Watch these 2 videos,I could publish more but it’s up to you now.
“The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance” Socrates
However people of faith need to have so much courage to talk about this. The fear of losing their faith, their afterlife, their social circle is to scary for the vast majority that every time someone educated try to explain them some things they block their ears as they think “the devil” is challenging their faith.
If they just understood why they dismiss all the other possible Gods,they would understand why I dismiss theirs.
The question is,If you want to make this world a better place,will you try to place a conversation about the nature of the universe in the 21st century where we have all that knowledge available to us OR you want to place it in 1st century where people based on they knowledge and culture tried to explain the world(just like ancient Greeks,Egyptians etc did with their religions)
John Lennon’s song “Imagine” is just awesome.Listen carefully to the lyrics and you will understand.
Imagine there’s no Heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will live as one
Stranger In A Strange Land 
I admire your position on religion, and you have indeed explained and clarified it well. But other people , like myself, have other opinions too, What should happen is people should not impose their beliefs on others. That’s the trouble with majority of religions, epecially in countries where there is no separation of religion from state.
My position regarding religion is passive, I read the Bible tounge in cheek. There are things written there that I know are there becuase at that time, there was no way to verify that it really happened. There was no CNN. No news reporters. The Bible tells us the sea parted, and that’s it. Our religion tells us to believe that because it;s in the Bible, and the Bible is the Word of God, it is The Truth. I say I’m passive because though I don’t believe it , there’s no harm in vehemently opposing my religion because of this. I just let it slide. Nonetheless, I do believe there is a Higher Being. Even scientists cannot explain the beginning of the existence of the universe. Even my belief in that is scientifically based.
The bottomline is , just follow the Golden Rule, i.e., do not do unto others what you do not want others to do unto you. If we follow this, perhaps there maybe no need for religion.
I’m not imposing my belief on others,just expressing my view on it.Actually that’s what happens when you baptize a child.Free will demands that faith must be personal.Parents can’t believe in God on behalf of their children.They impose their belief system on children by doing this.
Every religion’s “Holy” books is the word of God as they say,that doesn’t mean I have to believe them.Just because something is written down doesn’t make it true.
In reality your belief is not scientifically based.
Read this again–>“Hey what was that?”
“I don’t know”
“Then God did it!”
For thousands of years, people have said that their god was behind what they didn’t understand (lightning, stars, earthquakes, life, the origin of the world or the universe, etc.)You are using the same concept.Science never used “God” to answer a question.Because God is not the answer.
I would like to start by saying that I simpathsize with you position but disagree. I simpathsize because I have lost faith in science as it is used as in the modern context. I am like you in that I started with faith in something and then lost faith in the same. I am not like you in that my faith was first in science and now my faith is in the God of Jesus the Christ.
Modern science does not disseminate only evidence facts as you presume. Modern science is an illusion based on the idea that we can understand an infinitely complex unverse based on simplified observations and experiments.
What modern science does is ask a question. It then contimplates possible answers. Which it then decides based on anticdotal observations the answers that may more feasible to the particular scientist. The scientist then designs an experiment in which he or she must narrow down the variables. “Relevent” variables are tested and “irrelevent” variables are ignored or caculated out of the experiment. What is relevent is decided by the preconcieved notions of the scientist invovled. The experiment is then enacted and data is gathered. Data that seems out of place is usually ignored. Then the data is interpreted, many time using inadequete statistical evaluations and good old human logic. If the interpretation fits the scientist preconcieved hypothesis it is hailed as a good experiment, published, and used as the basis of further research. If it does not fit it is usually assumed that something was wrong with the experimental design and may be published if the authors have enough credibility. The scientists then will either scrap the experiment or go back and try to improve the experimental design. My point is that modern science is not as black and white cut and dry as it seems. It is wrought with the fallicies of the humans who perform and interpret the experiments. Although it seems I have thrown the baby out with the bath water, I do not mean to take an absolute stand that all modern science is hogwash. Many valid scientific discoveries have enhanced the lives of us humans. The proof in the pudding concerning science is does it work in real life; not that some experiment or scientific observation said it is true. By the way many of the supposed science that contradicts the Bible are based on observations not experiments. If based on experiments the evidence is so indirect thar it could be interpreted anyway the scientist wanted.
To say that religion is based on no evidence is absolutely false. God has revealed himself through many signs and wonders with many witnesses, but because of distrust and the fact that we were not there many do not believe. In fact many that saw specific evidence did not believe. Consider the participants of the exodus led by Moses. There were several who saw the risen Christ and did not believe. At least 500 people were witnesses to the risen Christ.
There is evidence that is all around us that God exists. Modern science believes that the universe had a beginning. The Bible says also that the universe has a beginning. Evidence for the flood of Noah is everywhere. Every continent on earth is covered with sedimentary rock with brief interruptions of volvanic rock. No matter how unpercievable, there is evidence which is ignored or discounted that the whole earth was once covered by water. More evidence is present. Modern science now believes that matter is made of energy wave similar to sound waves through String Theory. The Bible says that God spoke matter into existence. There are many other evidences that I could write a book on. Religion is evidence based but the problem in our modern world is that it defies logic and cannot be tested by an imperfect system of science.
As a side note, canabalism is very prelevent in the animal kingdom. Lions do kill lions and dogs and cats do kill their own. Also, the Bible does not teach that a God who ordains and directs every little detail of what goes on in the creation. In other words, not everthing that happens is the will of God as many religious people believe. Yes, he directs things and ensures that happenings stay with in certain bounds. Religious people sometimes use God as an excuse for the consequences of their own or others actions. Many times things happen the way they do because God set out natural laws that he will not alter unless it is within his plan or a human with faith petitions him. Many things that happen are a result of collective human sin and its consequences. If everything went the way God wanted, everything would be perfect; everyone would believe and noone would sin.
Sorry so long.
Peace,
First of all,thank you for commenting.
“Modern science is an illusion based on the idea that we can understand an infinitely complex unverse based on simplified observations and experiments.”
–Actually religion is an illusion based on the idea that we can understand an infinitely complex universe based on writings written 2 thousand years ago.We may never understand the origins of the universe but that doesn’t mean God did it.We can’t perceive all reality.That means we don’t even know what Reality is.We just make hypothesis about it just like religions do.The difference is that science doesn’t make hypothesis about the nature of reality out of air or depending on what they want it to be.
“3rd paragraph”
–I won’t go into details but science works like that->
1)Ask a question
2)Formulate a hypothesis
3)Perform experiment
4)Collect data
5)Draw conclusions.
That’ not only science.That’s how everyone’s mind works.Science is controlled by people.People make mistakes.Everyone makes mistakes.
A common argument from religious people is that you can’t trust science because science always changes its mind.That’s true BUT Science only changes its mind because of the evidence,that’s why it’s open-minded,not like religion,that even there’s a huge amount of evidence that the earth is about 4,5 billions years old they still believe that the earth is only 6 thousand years old,which is tragic.The fact that science improves its information speaks to its strength, not its weaknesses.
Add up the contributions of science versus the contributions of religion and make your own conclusions.
Science is far from perfect BUT compared to religion…..the answer is obvious.
“4th paragraph”
–Don’t mention bible stories to support your claims about God,Christianity etc.It’s like you use Batman movies to prove Batman.
“5th paragraph”
–The majority of religions believe that the universe had a beginning.There have been many flood stories like the Noah’s one from ancient sources all over around the world written before your religion’s one.And yes there were many floods but they had natural causes not supernatural ones.People hadn’t the knowledge to understand that so trying to explain what happened they came up with those supernatural ideas we call religions today.
“Modern science now believes that matter is made of energy wave similar to sound waves through String Theory. The Bible says that God spoke matter into existence”
–You use a part of science to prove something written in the bible is true?What about using the whole science??–>Speech is sound.Sound is disturbance in the air or another medium. There couldn’t exist sound in space since it was a void,so he couldn’t have spoken.
Say that’s it’s Faith,don’t say that its science based or something.
“6th paragraph”
I didn’t mean cannibalism.I meant murder.
Although I disagree entirely with this whole God concept,your point of view is slightly better than the most Christians believing that every simple thing that happens is the will of God.
First, please do not assume that I know nothing about scientific theory or investigation. I am trained a scientist to the Master’s degree level. I just challenge modern science’s claim that it is the final authority of what is true or false.
My whole point is that modern science is faith-based because it cannot directly test everything it claims to be able to test.The experiments can be designed to get the answer the scientist wants and the data is up for interpretation. Modern science is as flawed as the human minds that provey it; therefore, it is not absolute truth. It is basically man’s best attempt to describe the world around himself and I believe it has failed because it ignores evidence of forces that are extra-material. My other point is that religion and belief does not just make unsubstantiated and unevidential claims as you seem to imply. There is physical evidence that the things in the Bible are true. The Bible is also full of eye witness accounts.
To say that science is opened minded is an illusion. First, it denies anything extra-material. Second, have you ever tried to question any of the prevailing scientific theories. You ought to research how many people have lost their jobs or been stonewalled because they have questioned Darwinian evolution. As a side note, darwinian evolution cannot be tested through the scientific method so is therefore philosophy not science. Also, the supposed dating methods that show the earth as billions of years old are inherently flawed for two reasons. First, how can you measure how much an element has deteriorated when you do not know how much of the element was present in the first place, nor can anyone know for sure that outside forces such as heat, pressure, or outside sources of radiation altered the rate of decay. Second it is short-sighted to think that elemental decay did not start until the rock solidified. It does not matter, the Bible can be interpreted as if the days in Genesis are not literal days, even though I do not.
I hate to contend on semetics but sound is an energy wave like light that is why it echoes and why acoustics work. We are able to hear it due to a series of disturbances in the ear.
Intra-species murder is also very prevelent in the animal kingdom, especially in lions.
Concerning your statement about faith being based on 2000 year old writings. First, my and many other’s faith is not solely based on writings but personal and collective experience. Modern science has substansiated many of the events in the Bilbe. Many of our modern psychological practices are can be found written in the Bible. The Bible says as a man thinks in his heart so is he. The prevailing theory in psychology today is cognitive theory which states that if you can change someones thinking you can change your behavior. Modern psychology says that forgiveness is important to mental as well as physical health. Once again I could go on. Secondly, I have more faith in a book that has lasted 6000 years and been tried and tested than I do in modern books that have not stood the test of time.
4th paragraph”
–Don’t mention bible stories to support your claims about God,Christianity etc.It’s like you use Batman movies to prove Batman.
The Bible is mostly, a historical account of the Jewish nation. It is exactly the same as Darwin’s book on the origin of species in which he makes observations and records them and many cases interprets the observations. The Bible many times does not add interpretation but allows one to make one’s own conclusions.
I do not intend to get you to think like I do; I only wanted to point out that your position is not as firmly grounded as you imply. Your position is as closed-minded as you claim mine to be.
I don’t really get the point of this conversation.What’s the point of arguing against something you don’t even understand?
You are a trained scientist to the Master’s degree level?really??where did you study science?
You don’t believe in evolution?A stronger theory than Gravity?Do you even believe in Gravity?or you just fly?
You don’t believe that the earth is billion years old?
The Bible is also full of eye witness accounts?So is Batman movies.
Also scientists didn’t read the Darwin’s book and make it holy book or something.Some things Darwin said have been proven to be wrong by scientist!If they are enough evidence to dismiss evolution science will the first to say it.
You don’t believe in the evidence and facts but you believe in an old book?And I’m the one closed-minded here?Really?Okay….
But let’s say that yes,you are right about evolution,age of earth etc.Now prove your claims about the origins of human,age of earth etc with reliable evidence and facts.
Do you really think that insulting me is helpful?
I have not totally discounted all scientific discoveries in my responses. I have only challenged the absoluteness of modern science.
My point with telling you that I am a scientist is that I understand the scientific method more than you realize. One of the key things I learned in my training as a scientist is to question everything. Also, I have been taught to evaluate the experimental design and assumptions in any scientific article or discovery I am reading about. I have been taught this by non-christian scientists.
Gravity was undeniable before there was modern science. The evolution in which new phylum, families, and orders evolve from other phylum, families, and orders is not undeniable. Evolution is not as concrete as you think. Any “evidence” to the contrary is merely circumstantial and totally extrapolated from indirect “evidence”.
I believe in evidence, but I do not believe in the way much of it is interpreted. I have personal knowledge and experience that coroborates with the Bible; therefore the Bible is true to me.
Science has very little real evidence concerning the origins of humans. Most is interpretaion of evidence that can be interpreted differently. There are no reliable methods to age the earth, so I rely on a book that was began very early in earth’s human history. Many of the supposed evidence of an old earth is completely extrapolated and based on observations not the scientific method. In reality the scientific method can only be used on data in the here and now.
One key problem for modern science is the the origin of life. There is no evidence. scientific experiment, nor observation that can show conclusively that life was able to evolve out of a soup of organic molecules. They have only been able to get to the primordial soup. There is no experiment or theory that has been able to bridge the gap between promordial soup and reproducing/replicating life. Neither DNA nor RNA spontaneously forms or replicates. Both molecules only form and replicate in the presence of protiens; protiens which are only formed and replicated from DNA or RNA. Evidence shows that only life can produce life.
What part I insulted you?
Yup we have to question everything……even bible!
There are some details that may be wrong in the evolution theory,but evolution itself is a fact.If the current evidence aren’t direct as you say, what could be direct evidence for evolution?
Yeah science doesn’t have a solid theory of Abiogenesis yet,they still working on it.
But is this the “God of gaps” argument?As i said before science is far from perfect,but just because you can’t understand something doesn’t mean a supernatural being did it.Any claim someone makes needs evidence.What’s your evidence for your claims?I can’t see any.You just find some holes in science.I can write a lot of holes and contradictions in bible but I don’t do it because there’s no reason to do it.Disproving bible doesn’t prove science just like disproving science doesn’t prove bible.Trying to prove something by disproving something else is illogical,such logic is fallacious.
We are both saying from the beginning of this conversation that science isn’t perfect at all but you are still saying that again and again.
I prefer to base my life on logic not the writings of an old book that attempted to explain the universe with the knowledge and understanding that was available at the time. We have moved on a little since then.
Wow, Billy ! That was pretty intense discussion !
This is exactly the reason why I try to avoid religious topics. People become too emotional due to their strong beliefs. Reading the above discussions though, I find that both of you have quite strong arguments, pro and con.
Another topic that I try to avoid if I can help it is politics. Politics evoke as strong emotions as religion. But of course I;m not saying not to post anything controversial. LOL… Post something that you feel strongly and like writing about. This is exactly why there is a blog, a place where we can write down our thoughts !
Anyways, be well ! Hope you had a good time on your birthday.
Wow Ren ! 😛
Yeah,in that kind of topics no matter what anyone says,in the end people will believe what they want to believe.
I really don’t care If I post something that is controversial,we have the freedom of expression and no one can take it away from us.
Watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJhD9fXDoCQ
Thank you,be well too! 🙂
Okay, I watched the video, but I need to think more , so , I’ll be baaaaaaack ! ! Haha !
haha ok ok